socrates and phaedrus on writing

The critique of writing in the Phaedrus has inspired a great deal of commentary with a historical focus. Plato on Rhetoric and Poetry. Using Lysias's speech as . The work presents a philosophical debate between Socrates and Phaedrus. The concerns of writing arise after Socrates and Phaedrus have agreed on what constitutes rhetorical expertise. Phaedrus. Socrates prefers the city to the countryside. The irony of Socrates's and Phaedrus's discussion about writing is that, of course, it takes place in a dialogue that's been written down. Phaedrus By Plato Written 360 B.C.E Translated by Benjamin Jowett Persons of the Dialogue SOCRATES PHAEDRUS. Socrates What, then, is the method of writing well or badly? They begin to talk. The word himeros for desire, passions, quite unusual in the dialogue (10 occurrences, out of which 4 are in the Phædrus and 3 more in the Cratylus), is used three times in a few lines (251c7, d4, e3) in the center of the central section of the middle part of the central speech of Socrates, to describe the effect of beauty on the soul, and one more time in the central section of the third part . In the Phaedrus Plato(427-347 B.C.) Socrates presents the myth following a discussion of what forms of rhetoric and writing are pleasing to the gods. Currency: Service Rating: phonelink_ring Toll free: 1 (888)302-2675 1 (888)814-4206. Plato, The Phaedrus - a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus written down by the pupil of Socrates, Plato, in approximately 370 BC. Asserting that what is shameful is not speechwriting itself, but bad speechwriting, Socrates raises the question of how we determine when speaking or writing is good or bad. Plato's discussions of rhetoric and poetry are both extensive and influential. His explanation of choosing speech over text is two fold. Socrates [to Phaedrus]: . One composed by Lysias and read by Phaedrus to Socrates . and historically, that is, the writing of Socrates' student, Plato. The essential problem of writing is that it is a dead kind of speech. Through this dialogue, Plato showcases many significant concepts to life including the different philosophies of love, the appropriate medium to truth, the . [258e] Phaedrus You ask if we want to question them? She is author of the best-selling books The Biggest Bluff (Penguin Press, 2020), The Confidence Game (Viking Press, 2016) and . In addition, given that Plato was one of Socrates most devoted students, this act of speaking for/as Socrates can be likewise viewed within the context of the theme of lover and beloved given in "Phaedrus." If Socrates provided Plato with the means to the "divine truth" that he sought and about which he spent his life writing and . The Phaedrus Dialogue. "For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their . The Phaedrus would in fact be an essentially metaphilosophic dialogue. Don't plagiarize, get content from our essay writers! It appears to reach its climax with one of the most memorable pieces of Platonic writing (the great myth of the chariot of the soul), only to go on to treat it as a starting-point for a dry discussion of what Socrates calls the 'art of words (logoi)'.What emerges at the end of this discussion, between Socrates . In very broad terms, this transition introduced profound changes to the structure of human thought: whereas a strictly oral culture seemed to require externalization of reflections, the . Twice in Plato's dialogues (Symposium 173b, Theaetetus 142c-143a), fact-checking with Socrates took place as his friends sought to commit his conversations to writing before he was executed. Socrates, as expressed by Plato, refutes the false eloquence and proves that the rhetoric should be based on philosophy. Plato obviously saw value in preserving and passing down his ideas, or he would not have authored dialogues in the first place. Their discussion focuses on divine inspiration, soul, madness, and mastery of art. Two composed and delivered by Socrates. Socrates coyly declines but, Phaedrus playfully threatens him first with force and then with something more persuasive viz., the threat of no longer engaging in discourse (236c-e). The book, Plato: The Collected Dialogues presents a comical and philosophical analysis of the concept of falling in love. Such commentary views the dialogue in relation to the historical transition from orality to literacy. One concern Socrates raises about writing is with respect to . Phaedrus challenges Socrates to compose a better speech and promises to erect golden statues at Delphi if the challenge can be met (235d). In the early dialogues, Apology, Charmides,and Phaedo, for example, Plato gives a fairly accurate portrayal of Socrates. Although ostensibly about the topic of love, the discussion in the dialogue revolves . Plato, from The Phaedrus - a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus written down by Plato, the pupil of Socrates, in approximately 370 BC. Unlike other services, these guys do follow paper instructions. Thus, the critique on writing is arguably not a digression, but rather part and parcel of Socrates' and Phaedrus' dialectic on speech and rhetoric. Socrates's treatment of rhetoric in the Phaedrus emphasizes ethical problems of the orator's manipulation of the listeners, but these ethical concerns are founded on a metaphysical problem: the techniques of rhetoric, as they are applied by sophists and orators like Lysias, fall short of representing reality and thus fail to convey the truth. Socrates Writing, Phaedrus, has this strange quality, and is very like painting; for the creatures of painting stand like living beings, but if one asks them a question, they preserve a solemn silence. I have to pass on these quotes sent by one my Chaos and Complexity Seminar colleagues at the University of Wisconsin: Socrates on writing, from Phaedrus, 275a-b. Phaedrus is a little excited. Through this dialogue, Plato showcases many significant concepts to life including the different philosophies of love, the appropriate medium to truth, the . PHAEDRUS: I was with Lysias, the son of Cephalus,l Socrates, and I am Through the mouths of Socrates and Phaedrus he argues that rhetoric is only acceptable as an art when it is firmly based on the truth inspired by love, the common experience of true philosophic activity. text-only version is available for download. PHAEDRUS: My tale, Socrates, is one of your sort, for love was the theme which occupied us - love after a fashion: Lysias has been writing about a fair youth who was being tempted, but not by a lover [erastes]; and this was the point: he ingeniously proved that the non-lover should be accepted rather than the lover. The topic of the conversation was love, and the discussion mainly revolved around rhetoric, with the main subjects being erotic love and metempsychosis. The offsprings of painting stand there as if they are alive, but if . . Socrates on Friendship and Community is a work filled with sensitive analysis and reflection, both in its careful reading of the dialogues on which it focuses and in its comparison of Plato with two thinkers from the modern period, Kierkegaard and Nietzsche, who Nichols claims had very different views on the value of friendship and community, and as a consequence very different views on the . The text focuses on rhetoric and persuasion, but contains themes on metempsychosis, writing and love. Among the ancient Egyptian gods, there was one called Theuth who discovered "number and calculation, geometry and astronomy, as well as the games of draughts and dice, and above all else, writing" (Phaedrus, 274d). We know much more about Socrates and other ancient Greek figures because Plato did write, and because many of his texts have survived. am going to take a walk outside the wall, for I have been sitting with In the end, Socrates gives yet another speech on the same subject. Walking around the country and providing conversations on just about whatever happens to them, the Phaedrus and Socrates walking conversation displays relevant matters and enlightening words. What else should one . This brings us to the spring and summer of 399, to Socrates's trial and execution. It was the first time I didn't have to ask for a revision. In this speech, Socrates and Phaedrus try to discuss issues about emotion and the divine world. Phaedrus and Socrates discuss utilizing this manner through writing, but ultimately agree that writing fosters interaction with many ideas but dissuades the "actual learning" thereof. Where have you been? He it was that invented number and calculation, geometry and astronomy, not to speak of draughts and dice, and above all writing. [Headnote: In reading this excerpt from The Phaedrus which reports a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus, crucial to your understanding of what bothers Socrates about writing is knowing a bit about his history and his own philosophical method. Ewing 1 Brianna Ewing Professor Cody English 1CH 20 Sept. 2020 The Disparities Between Love and Lust Within Plato's Phaedrus, he presents the dialogue between Phaedrus and Socrates as they elaborate on the subjects of love and rhetoric. The Phaedrus (370 BC) is a dialogue between Socrates (the protagonist) and Phaedrus (the interlocutor). Phaedrus was a dialogue between Socrates who was Platos protagonist and Phaedrus who was an interlocutor in some talks (Nichols 137). 1358 Words6 Pages. And where are 227 you going? One on love as a divine madness. Socrates, Diderot, and Wolpert on Writing and Printing. J.M.C. Twice in Plato's dialogues (Symposium 173b, Theaetetus 142c-143a), fact-checking with Socrates took place as his friends sought to commit his conversations to writing before he was executed. You would imagine that they had intelligence, but if you want to . Socrates. Socrates goes on to compare a written text to a painting: You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly correspond to painting. . is concerned with establishing the principles of rhetoric.. But if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. PHAEDRUS: That is most true. In 399 BCE Socrates was tried by an Athenian jury on charges of (a) denying the existence of deities, (b) introducing new deities, and (c) corrupting the youth of Athens. Unlike living, breathing discourse, writing can neither change its argument nor respond to criticism. SOCRATES: You know, Phaedrus, writing shares a strange feature with painting. plato-1-euthyphro-apology-crito-phaedo-phaedrus-translated-by-harold-north-fowler 2/4 Downloaded from www.hortonhillfarm.com on January 17, 2022 by guest Proofreading sets any writing apart from "acceptable" and makes it exceptional. Incidentally, this morning I finished reading the Socratic dialogue, 'Phaedrus'[1]. Plato was almost like a "fly on the wall" or a tape recorder, and one The story is that in the region of Naucratis in Egypt there dwelt one of the old gods of the country, the god to whom the bird called Ibis is sacred, his own name being Theuth. Socrates says that they must finally turn to the subject of "propriety and impropriety in writing." He tells Phaedrus an Egyptian myth he's heard. Socrates on the Forgetfulness that Comes with Writing Socrates (469-399 BCE) was a Greek Philosopher who thought and taught through argumentative dialogue, or dialectic. The myth, which involves an Egyptian king, Thamus, and Theuth (Thoth), the god of writing. A brief transition leads into the second part of the dialogue, in which Socrates and Phaedrus discuss writing, speaking, and rhetoric. Phaedrus. Written by Plato, a close disciple of Socrates, this text . As Phaedrus and Socrates discuss contrasting views of love, madness, the soul, rhetoric, and writing, I got swept into their conversation. Socrates is in Athens where he bumps into an acquaintance called Phaedrus. for only $16.05 $11/page. Learn More. Socrates and Phaedrus Writing and speaking are two very different, yet extremely important activities to any educated person. Socrates, from Phaedrus and Letters VII and VIII, seems to think that spoken word holds great precedence over writing. This brings us to the spring and summer of 399, to Socrates's trial and execution. Most commentators divide Plato's writing into three major periods. A brief transition leads into the second part of the dialogue, in which Socrates and Phaedrus discuss writing, speaking, and rhetoric. souls, but, despite the Phaedrus' own critique of writing, reading such a dia­ logue may be a good way of working to attain it. According to Socrates, writing arguments eliminates the chance of actively questioning the motives of writers. Maria Konnikova is a science journalist and professional poker player. The Phaedrus (/ ˈ f iː d r ə s /; Greek: Φαῖδρος, translit. This text is NOT unique. "You are aware that the greatest and most influential statesmen are ashamed of writing speeches and leaving them in written . PHAEDRUS: My tale, Socrates, is one of your sort, for love was the theme which occupied us--love after a fashion: Lysias has been writing about a fair youth who was being tempted, but not by a lover; and this was the point: he ingeniously proved that the non-lover should be accepted From Plato's dialogue Phaedrus 14, 274c-275b: The trial of Socrates (399 BC) was held to determine the philosopher's guilt of two charges: asebeia against the pantheon of Athens, and corruption of the youth of the city-state; the accusers cited two impious acts by Socrates: "failing to acknowledge the gods that the city acknowledges" and "introducing new deities".. One day, Theuth visited Thamus, King of Egypt, urging him… Using Lysias's speech as . And so it is with written words; you might think they spoke as if they had intelligence, but if you question them, wishing to know about their . One a ruse on love treating love as an evil. Giving in to the heat, in a state of feverish half-slumber, Aschenbach continues to quote Phaedrus, this time in a mixture of harsh self-criticism, a lot of it imagined to come directly from Plato, through the voice of Socrates. Through the study of philosophy, Socrates goes on to explain, one can turn his yearning after a lover into a quest for real truth—a higher purpose than simple physical gratification. Socrates proceeds to emphasize the negative side of the pharmakon that is writing. The Phaedrus is a written text. SOCRATES: I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing is unfortunately like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. The Phaedrus falls by design into two distinct movements. [spring 399 Theaetetus] Prior to the action in the Theaetetus, a young poet named Meletus had composed a document . [spring 399 Theaetetus] Prior to the action in the Theaetetus, a young poet named Meletus had composed a document . In Plato's Phaedrus, Socrates calls into question the propriety and impropriety of writing. Socrates was found guilty and ultimately executed. The Phaedrus is - like so many other dialogues of Plato's - one of a kind. Plato's, Phaedrus, is a conscious whirlwind of ideas, propositions, musings, and teachings. Socrates has a high affinity for hearing speeches and begs Phaedrus to repeat the speech for him. He has just heard what he thinks is an amazing speech on love — eros — by the orator Lysias. A t first, a young and foolish Phaedrus agrees with Thamus. Tackling the topic of love was the initial subject that the two had taken into consideration. Reading the Phaedrus, the idyllic imagery present throughout caught my eye.That imagery is here for a reason, and initially I thought that the location of the dialogue was meant to symbolize the nature/civilization divide present in much Platonic thinking, but I wonder if it is more complicated than that? are you going? Ewing 1 Brianna Ewing Professor Cody English 1CH 20 Sept. 2020 The Disparities Between Love and Lust Within Plato's Phaedrus, he presents the dialogue between Phaedrus and Socrates as they elaborate on the subjects of love and rhetoric. The death sentence of Socrates was the legal consequence of asking . And so it is with written words; you might think they spoke as if they had intelligence, but if you question them, wishing to know about their . The dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus focuses on love, the art of rhetoric, and the figurative speech. And yet understanding his remarks about each of these topics—rhetoric and poetry . difficult and intentionally obsessive, Plato's Phaedrus is an exceedingly difficult read that defies all conventional logic as a piece of discourse. Through the study of philosophy, Socrates goes on to explain, one can turn his yearning after a lover into a quest for real truth—a higher purpose than simple physical gratification. It's not entirely known whether these are the words of Socrates, or Plato (speaking through a fictional character with the same name). Depending on how this fact is approached, there may be substantial consequences for the argument against writing overall. Scene Under a plane-tree, by the banks of the Ilissus. Tackling the topic of love was the initial subject that the two had taken into consideration. Throughout his discussion with a colleague, Socrates insists that writing destroys memory and weakens the mind (Ong, 2002). The crux of the speech, as read by the disenchanted and ungodly Phaedrus, is a utilitarian argument for lovers to pursue sexual favors from non-lovers, and therefore to receive the most in return. Writing: The Self-Condem nation of the Written Word in Plato's Phaedrus RONNA BURGER City University of New1 York Graduate Center The central figure of the Platonic dialogues is a Socrates rendered "young and beautiful" through the art of writing.1 While the very existence of the dialogues betrays the Platonic act of writing, the pro- 810 certified writers online. governed by the laws of magic and not . And so it is with written words; you might think they spoke as if they had intelligence, but if you question them, wishing to know about their . The Best Books on Socrates - Five Books Expert Recommendations Introduction. In the writings of Phaedrus, Socrates tells his disciples this story. His trial and … Plato: The Apology of Socrates This ambitious thesis makes Werner's work much more than a study of the myths contained in the Phaedrus' or even than a complete commentary on the Phaedrus; it is a reflection on Plato's conception of philosophy in light of the Phaedrus' myths. "I am a lover of knowledge, and the men who dwell in the city are my teachers, and not the trees or the country." . At the end of the dialogue (and also in a couple of other dialogues), Socrates makes his famous rebuttal against writing: You know, Phaedrus, writing shares a strange feature with painting. Addresses concerns about communication as a culture moves from orality to literacy. In Phaedrus, Socrates' argument is mainly centered on the dangers of written texts. In the process Socrates faulted writing for weakening the necessity and power of memory, and for allowing the pretense of understanding, rather than true understanding. Socrates complaint about writing: It diminishes memory Socrates is having a conversation with his young pupil, Phaedrus under a plane-tree, by the banks of the Ilisses. It is set in the last hours prior to the death of socrates, and is plato's fourth and last dialogue to . The support and the writer were professional and the paper was delivered 1 day sooner than I expected. In Phaedrus, Plato introduces readers to a dialogue that centres explicitly on the value of writing. And the same may be said of speeches. Through his spokes-charcter, Socrates, and the titular aristocrat Phaedrus, Plato introduces us to the problems he finds inherent in general writing (as separate from philosophical writing, as we will see later). Phaidros), written by Plato, is a dialogue between Plato's protagonist, Socrates, and Phaedrus, an interlocutor in several dialogues.The Phaedrus was presumably composed around 370 BCE, about the same time as Plato's Republic and Symposium. SocRATES: Phaedrus, my friend! We will write a custom Critical Writing on The Dialogue of Phaedrus: The Crises of Love and Inquiry specifically for you. In this particular quote from Plato's Phaedrus, Socrates is using a supposed dialogue between the Egyptian god Theuth (or Thoth), the inventor of writing, and Thamus, the king of Egypt, to explain to Phaedrus the dangers of writing, and the worrying effects Socrates thinks it has on human wisdom. Phaedrus had just returned from a famous patriarch's home, where he listened to a speech on love. Do we want to question Lysias about this, and anyone else who ever has written or will write anything, whether a public or private document, in verse or in prose, be he poet or ordinary man? The same is true of written words. For the ancient Greeks, eros denoted both sexual pleasure and was the name of a god. In the Phaedrus, written circa 370 BCE, Plato recorded Socrates's discussion of the Egyptian myth of the creation of writing. What label does Phaedrus give Socrates in the countryside? including McCarthy-Nielsen, interpret the discussion of writing in Phaedrus. In his dialogue with Socrates, Phaedrus attempts to get away with this second, spontaneous method when Plato asks him to share Lysias' speech: PHAEDRUS: I will do as I say; but believe me, Socrates, I did not learn the very words—O no; nevertheless I have a general notion of what he said, and will give you a summary of the points in which . Plato wrote the Phaedrus that was a dialogue and discussion of philosophical issues between Socrates and Phaedrus. Socrates did not write down any of his thoughts, however his dialogues were recorded by his student and protégé, the philosopher Plato (428 - 347 BCE). In reading this excerpt from The Phaedrus, which reports a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus, crucial to your understanding of what bothers Socrates about writing is Phaedrus Evidently. PHAEDRUS: Quite right. Socrates spots a text of the speech hidden under Phaedrus's cloak and asks him to read it in the Arcadian shade of a plane tree. It is the same with written words. They decide to walk along a nature trail into the jungle to find a serene environment, where Phaedrus offers to read him the speech. Footnote 25 The mythological cues of the Phaedrus also position the pharmakon as something which leads one astray, whether one is an Orithya or a Socrates, a Greek or an Egyptian: "one and the same suspicion envelops the book and the drug, writing and whatever works in an occult, ambiguous manner . The Phaedrus dialogue is one of the masterpieces of philosophical and artistic prose of Plato. A comment from Phaedrus on the supposed shamefulness of speechwriting--the art of the logographer--spurs Socrates's transition to a discussion of rhetoric and writing. Maybe Plato and Socrates are not quite as hostile against nature as we think they are. A certain god named Theuth discovered various things, such as numbers, geometry, astronomy, and ultimately letters. As in so many other cases, he sets the agenda for the subsequent tradition. Poets, Socrates whispers to Aschenbach, cannot reach knowledge without taking a sensual path, where they get fatally . Plato, unlike Socrates, could and did read and write. Dialogues with Phaedrus. Socrates, correcting his pupil, argues that it is simple-minded to believe that writing will impair a man's ability to comprehend and . Gives a fairly accurate portrayal of Socrates - Wikipedia < /a > Phaedrus read write... The initial subject that the greatest and most influential statesmen are ashamed writing., eros denoted both sexual pleasure and was the name of a god as! - Wikipedia < /a > Phaedrus numbers, geometry, astronomy, and the figurative speech orator Lysias transition into... Figures because Plato did write, and ultimately Letters the Phaedrus dialogue is one of the Ilissus an evil support..., Socrates insists that writing destroys memory and weakens the mind ( Ong, 2002 ) was. ; you are aware that the rhetoric should be based on philosophy other. Yet understanding his remarks about each of these topics—rhetoric and poetry passing down his ideas, or he would have... Remain most solemnly silent a ruse on love — eros — by banks! 888 ) 814-4206 and begs Phaedrus to Socrates, as expressed by Plato, refutes the false eloquence and that... What forms of rhetoric, and ultimately Letters example, Plato gives a fairly portrayal. Or whom the narrative is about issues both infinite and bounded the greatest and most influential statesmen are ashamed writing. For a revision - 1358 Words | Bartleby < /a > Phaedrus of choosing over... Ashamed of writing is with respect to the concept of falling in love Trial Socrates... 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Fairly accurate portrayal of Socrates as we think they are, from Phaedrus Letters! Phaedrus try to discuss issues about emotion and the divine world that they had intelligence, if! Thamus, and because many of his texts have survived have to ask for a revision following... Just heard what he thinks is an amazing speech on love treating love as evil! Words | Bartleby < /a > dialogues with Phaedrus as if they..
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